Bowen Dwelle in conversation with Latham Turner of Get Real, Man on writing to explore, how “adventure doesn’t happen by accident,” writing as men and the transition into being an older man, using research in storytelling, how “we all need our own philosophy,” the challenge of positive confrontation and “the Goat Work,” how we relate to our immediate geography, long-distance walking, wayfinding, personal spirituality, and the gods we’re praying as.
This was excellent! Latham, my first order of business: instituting Fuck Up Fridays! Bowen, I’m so intrigued by The Flowering Wand, thanks for the recco! You’ve really got me snagged on the positive role model question. Latham and I have touched on this before in comments… from a women’s perspective, I know I’ve been let down by so many men in my life. But I know they likely didn’t have the role models they needed either. I’m grateful you and your fellow male writers are doing your part to alter that cycle. We need more Atticus Finches!
Thanks for listening. The Flowering Wand is a really beautiful opener. For me, it captures the past-embracing, future-facing zeitgeist of where men are and can be, right now, more than anything else I've read -- although I do also provide a bunch of other pointers in this piece here → https://bowendwelle.substack.com/p/there-is-no-struggle-to-find-good
After reading that piece I now see the problem isn't with the definition of "patriarchy," but rather the definition of "role model" because—by definition—role model just an archetype. So, as you prove in your essay, we're called not even to redefine but scrap the model-model entirely. So: thought experiment. First, as a cis-gender woman, what do I really want from the men in my life? I think it's to be respected for how I contribute that's *beyond* my gender's expectations (and those are: kindness, caretaking, cooking meals, looking pretty, keeping organized, child rearing, etc.) What if, for example, I was respected (or—gasp—commended!) for speaking boldly rather than taken aside and chastised by my male boss about my "tone"? What about the nuance of just being a human who is sometimes smart and capable, sometimes totally messy? So, shoe on the other foot, what might men want from me? Rather than cobbling together a "Good Man" model from all of our cultural expectations, I throw out the model-model entirely, look beyond gender, and just appreciate the nuance of being a beautiful, amazing, messy, inspiring human.
I hope Fuck Up Fridays still lives on at Samsara. It was a fun way to get people out of their shells, especially when we'd had a hard day. And we had a global team, so the brits were always drinking and we in the Bay Area were trying to wake up with Philz coffee.
I love our recurring conversations in comments (and in real life). Bowen and I (and a lot of other men) are doing our best to change the cycle.
Well done Latham and Bowen, this is a great interview. There were many nuggets dropped into the conversation. The first one that got my attention was when you said at the beginning you wrote because you mistakenly, thought you knew the answers. (I apologize if I got this wrong but that's what I thought Latham meant). I chuckled as I recognized my initial motives for writing to be similar, I hope I have grown and moved past that innate perspective but it's likely something I have to constantly be on the watch for. Hopefully, I can blame decades of clinical practice and telling others what to do for a living on this personality trait!
Bowen, I loved your definition of spirituality as being a move toward Wholeness! Yes to this, as well as praying into the wise man you will become Latham. I'm pretty sure you two could have easily talked for another hour!
thanks so much for listening Donna—although "nuggets dropped" has me thinking of little forest creatures... I suppose whether it's gold or fertilizer we're all dropping our bits of personal wisdom along the way! I know what you mean... I often remind myself of how I soundl like I think I know what I'm talking about—and I do, but of course the view from the inside always *seems* real ;)
Thank you Donna. It was fun talking to Bowen. We did our best to keep it on point, because as you said, we could easily have talked for another hour or more.
I think many of us took to writing because we think we know something and just need a platform to share it. I've talked to a few people who started that way, all writers I admire and consider friends. I blame 11 years as a pilot for my personality trait! May we both overcome it and start being honest.
I'm grateful you listened and for your comments. It means a lot.
"Adventure doesn't happen by accident" should be it's own article, or even book. It's a great phrase that's immediately evocative for me. It of course conjures the notion of risk-taking, which when you think about it is the willingness to expose oneself to the accidental. In the world I've been empowering lately, speaking, I think of it as living a story worthy life. There is a lot of hype these days around the importance of story telling, but at base, it's story worthy living that drives engaging communication.
thanks Rick, glad that resonated with you. For me, it's not about exposing myself to the accidental, it's about being ready to move intentionally into the unknown, being "just ready enough" to handle what comes my way.
"Living a story worthy life" is something not enough people really aspire to these days. I was reading The Denial of Death, and Becker points out that most people are too ashamed to admit they seek a heroic life.
Bowen and I have talked a few times about what adventure means to us. It's a topic worth writing about and thinking about.
What events does one want speak to (and when does it become a situation when you’re in front of it and speaking to it)? In what context does one want to confront that thing?
Said another way, what is expanding or contracting about speaking to this and what is the level of resistance? Is that what makes it “confrontational”?
This was excellent! Latham, my first order of business: instituting Fuck Up Fridays! Bowen, I’m so intrigued by The Flowering Wand, thanks for the recco! You’ve really got me snagged on the positive role model question. Latham and I have touched on this before in comments… from a women’s perspective, I know I’ve been let down by so many men in my life. But I know they likely didn’t have the role models they needed either. I’m grateful you and your fellow male writers are doing your part to alter that cycle. We need more Atticus Finches!
Thanks for listening. The Flowering Wand is a really beautiful opener. For me, it captures the past-embracing, future-facing zeitgeist of where men are and can be, right now, more than anything else I've read -- although I do also provide a bunch of other pointers in this piece here → https://bowendwelle.substack.com/p/there-is-no-struggle-to-find-good
After reading that piece I now see the problem isn't with the definition of "patriarchy," but rather the definition of "role model" because—by definition—role model just an archetype. So, as you prove in your essay, we're called not even to redefine but scrap the model-model entirely. So: thought experiment. First, as a cis-gender woman, what do I really want from the men in my life? I think it's to be respected for how I contribute that's *beyond* my gender's expectations (and those are: kindness, caretaking, cooking meals, looking pretty, keeping organized, child rearing, etc.) What if, for example, I was respected (or—gasp—commended!) for speaking boldly rather than taken aside and chastised by my male boss about my "tone"? What about the nuance of just being a human who is sometimes smart and capable, sometimes totally messy? So, shoe on the other foot, what might men want from me? Rather than cobbling together a "Good Man" model from all of our cultural expectations, I throw out the model-model entirely, look beyond gender, and just appreciate the nuance of being a beautiful, amazing, messy, inspiring human.
Thank you E.L.
I hope Fuck Up Fridays still lives on at Samsara. It was a fun way to get people out of their shells, especially when we'd had a hard day. And we had a global team, so the brits were always drinking and we in the Bay Area were trying to wake up with Philz coffee.
I love our recurring conversations in comments (and in real life). Bowen and I (and a lot of other men) are doing our best to change the cycle.
Ha!! Oh that must’ve been a rippin good time! And yes, ditto! And great to actually SEE you again after a few months!
Well done Latham and Bowen, this is a great interview. There were many nuggets dropped into the conversation. The first one that got my attention was when you said at the beginning you wrote because you mistakenly, thought you knew the answers. (I apologize if I got this wrong but that's what I thought Latham meant). I chuckled as I recognized my initial motives for writing to be similar, I hope I have grown and moved past that innate perspective but it's likely something I have to constantly be on the watch for. Hopefully, I can blame decades of clinical practice and telling others what to do for a living on this personality trait!
Bowen, I loved your definition of spirituality as being a move toward Wholeness! Yes to this, as well as praying into the wise man you will become Latham. I'm pretty sure you two could have easily talked for another hour!
thanks so much for listening Donna—although "nuggets dropped" has me thinking of little forest creatures... I suppose whether it's gold or fertilizer we're all dropping our bits of personal wisdom along the way! I know what you mean... I often remind myself of how I soundl like I think I know what I'm talking about—and I do, but of course the view from the inside always *seems* real ;)
Thank you Donna. It was fun talking to Bowen. We did our best to keep it on point, because as you said, we could easily have talked for another hour or more.
I think many of us took to writing because we think we know something and just need a platform to share it. I've talked to a few people who started that way, all writers I admire and consider friends. I blame 11 years as a pilot for my personality trait! May we both overcome it and start being honest.
I'm grateful you listened and for your comments. It means a lot.
"Adventure doesn't happen by accident" should be it's own article, or even book. It's a great phrase that's immediately evocative for me. It of course conjures the notion of risk-taking, which when you think about it is the willingness to expose oneself to the accidental. In the world I've been empowering lately, speaking, I think of it as living a story worthy life. There is a lot of hype these days around the importance of story telling, but at base, it's story worthy living that drives engaging communication.
thanks Rick, glad that resonated with you. For me, it's not about exposing myself to the accidental, it's about being ready to move intentionally into the unknown, being "just ready enough" to handle what comes my way.
I did actually link that quote of mine to this short piece, for more on adventure → https://bowendwelle.substack.com/p/adventure-doesnt-happen-by-accident
"Living a story worthy life" is something not enough people really aspire to these days. I was reading The Denial of Death, and Becker points out that most people are too ashamed to admit they seek a heroic life.
Bowen and I have talked a few times about what adventure means to us. It's a topic worth writing about and thinking about.
Thanks for listening Rick.
What events does one want speak to (and when does it become a situation when you’re in front of it and speaking to it)? In what context does one want to confront that thing?
Said another way, what is expanding or contracting about speaking to this and what is the level of resistance? Is that what makes it “confrontational”?
I love Latham using the term elderhood when talking about his 40s. 🙄 Just wait young man! The pain and the wisdom are coming for you 😉
Love you guys.
I had the same thought about this wise young brother of ours! I mean, Latham, if you're an elder, than what am I, mate? 😉
the first word that comes to mind is sage.
But if you don't like that, how about a distinguished gentleman?
I'll take it! And either/both probably smell better than me IRL!
☺️ you’re older than dirt...like me.
no way am I as old as you!
Flaunt it if ya got it. 😉
Dee, I thought I'd at least have a few hours before I had to start being embarrassed by what I said. Guess not!
Grateful you tuned in.
😎 you put it out there pal it’s gonna be listened to! Carry on my friend.