"Why do you read memoir? Is this a very different reason than why you read fiction? Why?" I'm responding to this one because I haven't considered it till now. If the fiction novel is in the first-person, the answer is the same: I want to get inside someone's head and experience someone else's life. Whether the character is real or fiction makes little difference to me.
I hear that… although, I wonder, does it make a difference if you know the experience is real, as opposed to fictional? Not that one is better from a literary point of view…
(and, from a certain point of view, all fiction is ‘real,’ because it was conceived by a human mind…)
This is an excellent conversation, thank you Bowen & Michael. You both have fantastic interview skills.
I appreciated Michael's comment that, as a culture, we seem to have lost the nuance of conversation or dialog. That, sadly, seems to be a vast understatement. Hopefully, places like Substack and conversations such as these will begin to restore the balance.
I fully agree with both of your take on personal responsibility and enjoyed this part of the discussion. For some reason the word robust keeps coming into my mind about it, I guess that's to say that you both dug into that issue fully. I guess it was easy for me to go along for the ride as I was in full agreement!
I met a little resistance in the discussion of mothers though. I am a Mom to two young men so was curious where you guys were going to go with the discussion. I think Jung's take on the whole thing needs to be looked at with a very wide lens. That being said, I am not a Jungian scholar so my knowledge of his full take on Moms and sons is only rudimentary. I found the discussion interesting while at the same time thinking 'holy shit and no damn way!'
Two other points that hit home were when you, Michael, talked about writing as externalizing the internal. Love that, and same for when Bowen talked about responding to the work, not the person, because the work is the soul. Bravo! That is something I need to bear in mind. I am a not-yet-reformed people pleaser so sometimes catch myself responding to the person as much as the work. I am going to work on that and question myself in the moment.
Hi Donna, and thanks so much for your notes here! I'll have to go back and listen to the part about mothers, but I'd be interested to hear more about what gave you pause. Please take my familiarity with "Jung's take" with many grains of salt, so to speak. What I was getting at was that the relational dynamic between mothers and sons (and, of course, between mothers and fathers and any of their children) is rich and complex, and that one aspect of, in the case of this conversation, the mother-son dynamic that is often overlooked, and problematic, is what I refer to as the psychosexual—that is, the realm where identity and the sexual psyche intersect. We pretend that somehow simply because they are parents and children, parents and children are no longer sexual beings, and my take is that that is a mistake, and that it's the source of a lot of what Jung would call "neuroses."
I wrote about how I didn't see my mother as a "woman" in this chapter of my memoir:
I read How to Write a Book Proposal by Michael Larsen 1.5x. (An incredible, incredible resource. It even includes jokes.) I completed it fully, with highlighter, in July of this summer. One of the elements of a book proposal is an author’s platform. I was also listening to Richelle Fredson’s podcast, Bound and Determined. That’s what eventually led me to Substack, in effort to grow or build my platform. I was just wondering if either of you as authors have considered writing one or where you fall on the subject.
ah, gotcha, thanks for elaborating. I haven't yet written a book proposal, but I imagine that I may well end up doing so as I begin to seek publication—but I won't turn my attention to that until I get back from three weeks in the high Sierra!
Thanks for listening, glad you enjoyed the interview!
Can you be more specific more about your question about book proposals? Do you mean what do I think of pitching a book proposal in advance, trying to get a book deal up front? I don’t have any personal experience doing that, having just completed my memoir manuscript on spec, so to speak.
"Why do you read memoir? Is this a very different reason than why you read fiction? Why?" I'm responding to this one because I haven't considered it till now. If the fiction novel is in the first-person, the answer is the same: I want to get inside someone's head and experience someone else's life. Whether the character is real or fiction makes little difference to me.
I hear that… although, I wonder, does it make a difference if you know the experience is real, as opposed to fictional? Not that one is better from a literary point of view…
(and, from a certain point of view, all fiction is ‘real,’ because it was conceived by a human mind…)
This is an excellent conversation, thank you Bowen & Michael. You both have fantastic interview skills.
I appreciated Michael's comment that, as a culture, we seem to have lost the nuance of conversation or dialog. That, sadly, seems to be a vast understatement. Hopefully, places like Substack and conversations such as these will begin to restore the balance.
I fully agree with both of your take on personal responsibility and enjoyed this part of the discussion. For some reason the word robust keeps coming into my mind about it, I guess that's to say that you both dug into that issue fully. I guess it was easy for me to go along for the ride as I was in full agreement!
I met a little resistance in the discussion of mothers though. I am a Mom to two young men so was curious where you guys were going to go with the discussion. I think Jung's take on the whole thing needs to be looked at with a very wide lens. That being said, I am not a Jungian scholar so my knowledge of his full take on Moms and sons is only rudimentary. I found the discussion interesting while at the same time thinking 'holy shit and no damn way!'
Two other points that hit home were when you, Michael, talked about writing as externalizing the internal. Love that, and same for when Bowen talked about responding to the work, not the person, because the work is the soul. Bravo! That is something I need to bear in mind. I am a not-yet-reformed people pleaser so sometimes catch myself responding to the person as much as the work. I am going to work on that and question myself in the moment.
Well done on nailing some amazing topics.
Hi Donna, and thanks so much for your notes here! I'll have to go back and listen to the part about mothers, but I'd be interested to hear more about what gave you pause. Please take my familiarity with "Jung's take" with many grains of salt, so to speak. What I was getting at was that the relational dynamic between mothers and sons (and, of course, between mothers and fathers and any of their children) is rich and complex, and that one aspect of, in the case of this conversation, the mother-son dynamic that is often overlooked, and problematic, is what I refer to as the psychosexual—that is, the realm where identity and the sexual psyche intersect. We pretend that somehow simply because they are parents and children, parents and children are no longer sexual beings, and my take is that that is a mistake, and that it's the source of a lot of what Jung would call "neuroses."
I wrote about how I didn't see my mother as a "woman" in this chapter of my memoir:
https://open.substack.com/pub/bowendwelle/p/learning-to-love-alone
Btw, my comments about responding to the work not the person came from listening to one of Meghan Daum's recent episodes. She's awesome!
Thanks again for your close reading and comments!
I read How to Write a Book Proposal by Michael Larsen 1.5x. (An incredible, incredible resource. It even includes jokes.) I completed it fully, with highlighter, in July of this summer. One of the elements of a book proposal is an author’s platform. I was also listening to Richelle Fredson’s podcast, Bound and Determined. That’s what eventually led me to Substack, in effort to grow or build my platform. I was just wondering if either of you as authors have considered writing one or where you fall on the subject.
Yes! I met Larsen a few times at the SF Writers Conference. Great resource. You might enjoy this post on literary agents: https://michaelmohr.substack.com/p/literary-agent-rejections
Oh cool. That’s right, San Francisco.
And thanks for the link! I’ll check it out.
ah, gotcha, thanks for elaborating. I haven't yet written a book proposal, but I imagine that I may well end up doing so as I begin to seek publication—but I won't turn my attention to that until I get back from three weeks in the high Sierra!
Enjoy your break! I was very happy for you when I heard you say that in the podcast. It sounds amazing.
I enjoyed it. Landed a few good laughs in there too which I thoroughly appreciate.
I’m curious of your thoughts on book proposals. Working on mine is actually what led me to substack.
Thanks for listening, glad you enjoyed the interview!
Can you be more specific more about your question about book proposals? Do you mean what do I think of pitching a book proposal in advance, trying to get a book deal up front? I don’t have any personal experience doing that, having just completed my memoir manuscript on spec, so to speak.
I guess I’m asking if you’ve considered writing one in order to shop your book.
wohooo!!
Well done men 🙏
Thanks for the shoutout!
Listening now 📻